November 11th, 2009

Japanese annoys me sometimes, especially now. Apart from trying to use interesting and colourful grammar expressions in prep for JLPT2 only to have them all corrected to 〜たら or some other form I studied years ago (OK, I give up, I’ll just learn to read these new forms and just say ‘when’ for everything in conversation), I’m also coming across bad habits I’m having to unlearn and fundamental problems of which the nuance is becoming very difficult to grasp. I’ll share three points with you today. Please feel free to shoot them down in flames and then vaporize the ashes, it’ll learn me.

1) だ vs です

Read this – http://www.guidetojapanese.org/polite.html#part5
Then read this – http://www.guidetojapanese.org/forum/viewtopic.php?id=3567

We are always taught that です is the polite form of だ.
That’s not true thou. The second author confuses です with other polite forms hence he feels they are equivalent, I think.

です is, as far as I’m aware, just a way of making a sentence polite for the most part. As the first author explains. It seems that way from my experience too. One such example was today when a receptionist replied back to me ‘I’m fine desu yo’. Here desu and yo seem to have no meaning other than to politen and emphasize the English sentence, which is already correctly is-afied.

だ on the other hand has many uses, some of which would be ‘is’, but one of which is not ‘is’. I can’t count the number of times I’ve been corrected when putting a だ at the end of a sentence thinking it’s a substitute for です。Even if I’m right some times, I’m wrong so many others to the point that a rule we learn at the start that だ=です meaning wise if not politeness wise is kinda counter productive.

2) はい = yes

I have a feeling I have to stop saying はい when a shop assistant asks if I want a bag. I’m thinking they only know I want one because I nod viciously while saying it

http://home.att.net/~keiichiro/gokai/eng/yesno.html
http://www.thirteenmonths.com/jp02_winterwonderland.htm
http://hobby_elec.piclist.com/e_japanese3_8.htm

Hai can mean a lot of things, one of them I heard a long time ago is ‘yes, I’m listening’, rather than ‘yes, in answer to your question’. It’s possible I’m just proving to the shop assistant that I’m not deaf. I’m sure my ‘hai’ has not a hint of a question tone and yet for some reason they’ve occasionally looked at me confused. At least until I nod.

3) 〜ている / 〜ていた

I have a further feeling that this doesn’t mean the same as the present/past continuous in English. There as so many places were that rule breaks down crying to the embarrassment of all around it. I’m fine with the verbs that do use continuous forms in English but not in Japanese, and those which use ‘〜ている’ in Japanese but not present continuous in English (the famous 犬が死んでいる* for the Japanese dog that’s been dead for hours while its English counterpart writhes in agony, his final minutes ticking endlessly on before he snuffs it – as in ‘The dog is dying’). I’m also down with using it for other people’s actions, as the past continuous seems to be used for a lot. But it’s still damn confusing having my past sentences corrected to a ‘continuous form’ with no rhyme or reason, at least to mine eyes.

Investigations continue.
PLEASE HELP ME

(*)Or is it 犬は死んでいる。This is another thing I’ve been wrestling with recently. See this blog post and replies by native speakers.

Disclaimer. In trying to make this interesting to read I may have been too liberal with the irony ketchup. I am English. I find it amusing to use sarcasm and irony. By the way, they are not the same thing, Japanese language. Don’t look away, I’m talking to you!

This entry was posted on Wednesday, November 11th, 2009 at 11:40 pm and is filed under Leviathon. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site.

7 Responses to “You must unlearn all that you have learnt”

Yagarasu Says:

Although many people say japanese is easy, that’s not trueと思います, haha.
I have the same problems. They shouldn’t teach that です=だ.
Good luck with your investigations!

Phizuol Says:

I’m sure Khatzumoto would recommend more input. Unlearning habits might be tough though.

Leviathon Says:

MORE INPUT! Johnny five needs more input.

Actually, in digging out quotes, I found this one.

“These two books are wonderful, may I have them craphead?”

Kinda sums up language learning past a certain point. The grammar’s correct but those inappropriate words linger on.

Aodh Says:

です is the polite contraction of である. There are times where you need to use である or it’s courteous form でござる, and it’s irregular conjugation でございます。 Not to mention the respectful form でいらっしゃる(でいらっしゃいます). Finally だ is the short form of です. That is neither more or less polite, just the short form. Depending if written or spoken one can be more or less polite than the other.

はい means that you agree. Depending on the situation, there are many other options including saying うん, ええ, おねがいします, and more. My students tend to laugh (not in a bad way) when I agree with them saying うん. The inflection for はい is very important. Up is like saying ‘What did you say?’ both in the ‘I didn’t hear’ and ‘what the hell’ context. Down inflection means that you agree with the speaker. When you give the same kind of inflection as ‘yeah, yeah’, you actually get that meaning. I’m really not one to give advice as to which to use with the store clerk, but I usually either use うん or おねがいします for a ‘yes, please do that’. Just be careful if they are asking if you want a bag, or asking if it’s alright to put items into one bag as opposed to two.

As for the ている form, I whipped out my Genki Vol 1 to make sure I get this correct. There are three main types:
1. Describe a continuous states.
2. Describe activities that last for some time.
3. Describe the result of a change.

For example, when you get married you go from being single to being married. One tip the book said to determine if it is talking about a continuing action or a state is if you can describe the phrase using 一時間.

〇私はきのう一時間本を読みました。
×私は一時間死にました。(“I died for an hour”, which is as ungrammatical in both English as it is in Japanese.)

So 死ぬ (Along with 起きる、行く、帰る、来る、分かる、出かける、乗る、座る、消す、忘れる、借りる、降りる、持ってくる、連れてくる、結婚する、太る、やせる and 着る) are type 3 verbs.

isacksen Says:

I have run into a lot of the same experiences. There is never a textbook conversation that sounds like a real one. I get lost if I am around “natural” conversation.

More and more words I understand as I continue to study, but there seems to be some other set of rules for casual conversation that text books and example tapes completely leave out.

Gordon Says:

I have a few thoughts here, but I’m not totally sure of them.

1) です is short for ではあります. だ is not short for anything, that I know of. When first learning, it may be helpful to think of them as similar, but I believe they have truly different functions.

For example, you cannot use だ with い-adjectives, but you can with です:
だめ:おいしいだ。
正しい:おいしいです。
正しい:有名だ。

2) I would usually say はい unless it’s a negative question, but you can always repeat the verb for extra clarity. E.g.:

店員:ポイントカードがありますか?
客さん:はい、あります。

3) I’m sorry for your dog ;P . I’m no help for this one.

isacksen Says:

Another comment.. on the ‘colorful’ uses of the language being changed, I had that experience with an essay or two in school.

I showed the essay (with corrections) to both my girlfriend and sword sensei and both said my writing before the changes was much more natural and conveyed emotion that was lost after the the changes.

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